Speaker 1 (00:01):
This episode of EnergyCents is brought to you by IHS Markit's Financial and Capital Markets Energy Advisory Group. Our team of experts provides the investment community with actionable insight, and integrated thought leadership, that identify the trends and trend makers of global energy markets. Solutions cover the full energy and natural resources sector from traditional fossil fuels, to emerging clean tech ideas and supply chains, and are available via recurring reports, webinars, robust data sets, and personal engagements with experts.
Breanne Dougherty (00:30):
Welcome everybody to this episode of EnergyCents, the podcast where we speak of everything at the intersection of energy and finance. As always, I've got Hill Vaden with me here today. Hill, how are you doing?
Hill Vaden (00:43):
I'm doing well, Breanne, how are you?
Breanne Dougherty (00:46):
I'm pretty good. I was just explaining to Hill that this morning was exciting. I went for a walk, that's very thrilling I know for everybody to hear about. I'm trying to think of something interesting that's happened in the last few days, and to be honest, I'm drawing a blank. Must be that I've been working too hard.
Hill Vaden (01:02):
Yeah. I mean, a walk is a luxury both with some of the work loads that we're all carrying, or lucky enough to be carrying I should say, and with a lot of the restrictions that are going down on the back of some of this COVID flare up. I was talking with my sister recently, and I'm not sure she can go on a walk without a mask anymore.
Breanne Dougherty (01:24):
Oh, yeah. I'm fully masked when I'm on my walk. It's not [crosstalk 00:01:27].
Hill Vaden (01:26):
In Texas we can walk without masks.
Breanne Dougherty (01:30):
Oh, really? Yeah, no. My mask goes on as soon as I step out the front door and then doesn't come off until my shoes are off.
Hill Vaden (01:39):
There you go.
Breanne Dougherty (01:40):
Hill Vaden (01:41):
Well hopefully, today or tomorrow is just as exciting. New York is known for walks and many things.
Breanne Dougherty (01:49):
It is true. I have to say, it was two Saturdays ago, I guess. When the election results came off, New York was hopping. So, it was socially distant. Sometimes maybe not as socially distanced as probably it should be or has been, but two Saturdays ago off the election results, the city erupted.
Hill Vaden (02:11):
Breanne Dougherty (02:12):
I think is an appropriate word for it. We were surprised at how much of a display there was. Not that you knew what to expect or anything, but yeah. So, a couple of weekends ago, it was also beautiful weather, so it seemed to bring New York City alive for a good 24 hours, and since then it's gotten a little bit colder and people are back indoors. So, a combination of the news, the news dies down, and it got colder. So, people moved back indoors, but yeah. And maybe the real thing is that we are working hard. In case Lance is listening, we've been working very hard, barely have time to go on walks.
Hill Vaden (02:49):
Yes, no time for walks. We're in our chairs and typing furiously, with smiles on our faces.
Breanne Dougherty (02:58):
Exactly, and recording podcasts, which we're very excited to be doing today. We've got Catherine Robinson with us, which is a thrill for Hill and I, because she's here to talk about something that I have to say we're hearing come up from both our clients and internally within our colleagues, from our colleagues on a daily basis at this point. She leads our global analysis of low carbon gas research, and today we're here to talk about hydrogen. So, welcome so much Catherine for joining us.
Catherine Robinson (03:25):
Thank you, hello. I'm very glad to be here.
Breanne Dougherty (03:27):
I think what's interesting is, as I said, I'm not even exaggerating, daily I'm hearing a question about hydrogen, or a statement about hydrogen from clients and colleagues alike, and it's clearly become a hot topic. And I think when we were talking about this, and prepping for the podcast actually, Hill drew attention to an article that came out where Boris Johnson has launched a plan for a green recovery that's post COVID-19 recovery, and how really take the opportunity to get the UK on a green path.
Breanne Dougherty (04:00):
And I read through it, and this I found to be a particularly poignant statement. Imagine Britain when a green industrial revolution has helped to level up the country. You cook breakfast using hydrogen power before getting into your electric car, having charged it overnight from batteries made in the midlands. Around you, the air is cleaner, trucks, trains, ships, and planes run on hydrogen or synthetic fuel.
Breanne Dougherty (04:21):
Needless to say, hydrogen is a big part of all of these conversations these days, and particularly in Europe where it's getting a huge amount of support, not just from individual countries, but the EU as a whole has come forward with some mandates. So, first thing's first, when we get to hydrogen though, for listeners or I'm not even going to be shy about it, for myself included, can you just explain a little bit? We hear green hydrogen, blue hydrogen, what exactly is hydrogen? How does it fit into this whole fuel conversation?
Catherine Robinson (04:56):
So, I think what we've seen happening is a discussion about using hydrogen as an energy carrier. So, using hydrogen as a fuel for vehicles, using hydrogen as a source of space and water heating, and using hydrogen in industry. So, hydrogen obviously is used today in refining, and in feed stocks, but this is about using it in industry, and that's the change that we've seen in the last, I suppose, two years in terms of the discussion.
Catherine Robinson (05:21):
Where does that hydrogen come from? People talk about blue hydrogen, that would be hydrogen from natural gas with carbon capture, or they talk about green hydrogen which is hydrogen from water where that water is split using electricity, and the electricity supply is coming from renewable [inaudible 00:05:39] high level definitions I think that people are talking about.
Hill Vaden (05:43):
Is one closer? I assume the green hydrogen is that much cleaner because there's no fossil fuel involved in the process? Does one have more momentum than the other from a consumer standpoint?
Catherine Robinson (05:58):
I don't know the consumer is that concerned. I think that we're seeing is a lot of discussion around policy, about whether blue hydrogen is considered clean hydrogen or not, and there's a very complex taxonomy that's being developed which defines clean hydrogen, low carbon hydrogen, renewable hydrogen all slightly differently, but hydrogen with carbon capture can be extremely low fuel too. They're usually looking at in excess of 90 percent carbon capture, so it is a low carbon fuel.
Catherine Robinson (06:31):
[inaudible 00:06:31] hydrogen from coal with carbon capture can be a very low carbon fuel, and they're all supported in these discussions that are ongoing at the moment. But certainly, a lot of the focus is on green hydrogen. That's probably where a lot of the attention is, a lot of the discussion.
Breanne Dougherty (06:49):
And it's not new, right? Hydrogen is already... I mean it's a small portion, but it's already part of the fuel mix. Is this right? Some places-
Catherine Robinson (06:56):
So hydrogen today might be about two percent of energy supply, but that's used predominately as a feed stock, so it's going into chemicals. So going into manufacture of plastics, going into ammonia, going into fertilizers. It's also used in refineries, and it's used a little bit as an industrial gas, but this is about using it as an end use fuel, so as a source of heat, or as a source of mobility.
Breanne Dougherty (07:24):
And I mean the EU has put forth a lot of plans and I believe mandates as well, or targets. How quickly can this hydrogen industry take off and become a real representation within the fuel mix? I'm assuming the EU is the region that's most advanced with respect to the hydrogen, but correct me if it's actually someplace else we're going to see it make inroads faster.
Catherine Robinson (07:54):
I think the EU, it's very interesting, because they're looking at using it everywhere. They're looking at putting in place a very clear support framework, and for using hydrogen in industry in addition to using hydrogen mobility. The targets that people are talking about, if you look at Germany, maybe five percent of energy demand by 2030.
Catherine Robinson (08:14):
The European Union is looking at about 25 percent by 2050, so that would be equivalent to natural gas today. So, really very rapid growth in terms of the scale. In other markets, so in China, Japan, they're looking more up at using hydrogen in transportation. And so for heavy goods vehicles. South Korea is looking at fuel cells for power generation purposes, and obviously in California there's a lot of discussion around the transport fleet as well.
Hill Vaden (08:47):
So you say that the 2050 EU hydrogen was about 25 percent of demand, which is today natural gas. Does hydrogen grow at the expense of natural gas, or is natural gas, is there almost a second life for natural gas if it is blue hydrogen rather than green hydrogen that is fueling that growth?
Catherine Robinson (09:10):
So, I think in terms of what is being displaced by hydrogen, the fuel that's being displaced in end use is oil or gas, or in some cases coal. But there is definitely a second life for natural gas in terms of being a source as a feed stock for hydrogen, so in the outlook that we just produced for Europe through 2050, we will see the largest use of natural gas in Europe in 2050 being making hydrogen. We'd also see the largest use for electricity in 2050 in Europe being making hydrogen. So, it is very transformative for both the gas sector and the electricity sector.
Hill Vaden (09:48):
Was that some of the enthusiasm around blue hydrogen that it's the traditional fossil fuel companies that are perhaps most interesting in the success of hydrogen because it makes some of these commodities, in particular natural gas, more relevant?
Catherine Robinson (10:04):
I think we're seeing interest from the entire value team in hydrogen, so electricity utilities are very interested in it because it's a way of boosting electricity demand. The OEMs are seeing a much larger demand for renewable capacity in the long term. Infrastructure companies are very interested in it because it's a new life for gas infrastructure.
Catherine Robinson (10:27):
Natural gas infrastructure is potentially a way of managing more efficiently the electricity infrastructure, and the upstream oil and gas companies are very interested because of the opportunities for market for natural gas, and the ability to develop carbon sequestration and storage, and also I think the potential for offshore wind development as well. So, it really is bringing everybody into the mix.
Breanne Dougherty (10:55):
First of all, I think that's what makes it so exciting, right? Is the combination of the interested parties in this particular fuel. But I mean what you just described there, that just sounds to be a huge amount of investment, right? How easy? I doubt it's just turning on a switch necessarily to switch from a pipeline being natural gas to hydrogen. How feasible is all of this really, from either an investment or actually just the nuts and bolt logistics of what would need to be accomplished to make this happen by 2030 or even 2040? Is it reasonable?
Catherine Robinson (11:30):
I mean, I think there's a lot of change that we'd be required to see a large scale hydrogen market. There's no question about that, and I think what we're seeing is the various different barriers to hydrogen deployment are being addressed excessively in different regions. So, I think there's three big limiting factors today, and each one needs to be addressed in turn. The first one is that the demand for hydrogen today is very limited outside the industrial sector.
Catherine Robinson (11:59):
So, you have to create the demand. There's then what does that hydrogen cost, because today hydrogen would be about twice the price of natural gas, and possibly as much as four times the cost of natural gas. So there is a cost barrier that has to be overcome, and then the third question is, how do you transport that hydrogen around to what is the infrastructure?
Catherine Robinson (12:17):
And they're all being addressed in turn, and probably the most important one is finding the anchor customer for the hydrogen, so really getting the interest of large industrial consumers, or large scale transport fleets, that kind of thing, to find a market for hydrogen that then allows scale to be built in terms of production.
Catherine Robinson (12:37):
That allows infrastructure to develop these kind of things, and I think this is what's interesting in terms of what's happening in Europe at the moment, is that there are discussions amongst large industrial groups about creating large scale projects for demand from the mid 2020s.
Hill Vaden (12:55):
And where, if I'm one of these potential large customers, what am I looking at for trying to understand my cost profile if I'm going to start relying on hydrogen? Am I indexed to the price of natural gas? Am I indexed to the price of oil? Is there something totally independent?
Catherine Robinson (13:18):
I think what we're seeing at the moment is that the hydrogen, I mean there is no large scale market in low carbon hydrogen. So, what the pricing mechanism would be is a bit unclear. I think what we're probably seeing is that they are building consortium with the producer of the hydrogen, with the transporter of the hydrogen, and with the end use demand altogether. So, it's a full value chain that's being created, and it's linked back to the cost of renewable electricity, as probably being the biggest driver for green hydrogen, for blue hydrogen [inaudible 00:13:51] natural gas.
Breanne Dougherty (13:53):
And so, when we think of all of these things, and obviously the EU is driving things forward from a policy standpoint, and let's talk a little bit about the US, and where maybe the policy isn't as robust around transition, particularly around hydrogen at this point. Do you think that the policy is a necessity to drive this progress forward? Do you think that it really is a combination of policy and private investment or investment from the companies? Basically, can it happen, do you think, without governments really pushing the initiatives forward?
Catherine Robinson (14:30):
Well, I think... I mean, today hydrogen would be substantially more expensive than the existing fuel that's being used. So there is an economic bridge that has to be made. I think there's markets where we can see that happening. It happens with the low carbon fuel standard in California would make it economic to use hydrogen there.
Catherine Robinson (14:52):
So, that is effectively a policy driven instrument. I think without a policy framework, it's very difficult to envisage it just happening independently. But we are, I think, seeing more policy frameworks being put in place that could drive progress, or penetration of hydrogen. So, there are proposals in Oregon, there are proposals in Canada around low carbon fuel standards for transportation could be ways of driving a market.
Hill Vaden (15:22):
So, where? I mean it feels like in some sense is that with policy, such an important factor in this, of the renewable technologies that people are looking at right now, we've got electric vehicles, we've got wind, we've got solar. Is hydrogen the farthest off? I mean, solar and electric vehicles is here. Wind is here. Is hydrogen gaining ground, or is that maybe a next step, five to 10 years after these become more mainstream?
Catherine Robinson (15:52):
I think hydrogen is in the buildup phase at the moment. So, it's just as we saw maybe where batteries and solar were 10 years ago, something like that. That's the stage maybe that we're at with the development of hydrogen for energy use. That being said however, the technology is extremely well developed, and is well understood because it is being used in industry today.
Catherine Robinson (16:17):
So, on the one hand, it's quite immature, so it's immature for energy use. That market is small, but the actual use and understanding of hydrogen, it's a huge market already today. So it's just about using it in a different place, which may be something that can make the adoption much more rapid than you might envisage in other cases.
Hill Vaden (16:42):
So is that economics and effectively the cost of hydrogen that's the inhibiting factor more so than technology or anything else?
Catherine Robinson (16:45):
I think it's the level of ambition to decarbonize, really is what in some ways the driver of the change that we're seeing now. So, once we start to look towards net zero carbon, then net zero carbon without hydrogen is really very challenging to envisage how that would happen. So, it's more a function of targets that are deeply decarbonizing.
Hill Vaden (17:08):
Okay, and so when you talk about net zero being, we saw a big announcement from China earlier this year. I think Biden has more interest in net zero type policy or ambition within the US than perhaps Trump did. Boris Johnson obviously with his op-ed yesterday in the Financial Times is big. Is hydrogen able to make the inroads that one would expect on a country by country basis, or does there need to be some sort of global coordination to make it more of a reality?
Catherine Robinson (17:42):
I think if you look at the statements from China, from South Korea, from Japan, from the UK, from the European Union, you've got quite a lot of countries there that are already pushing towards net zero carbon. The statements from Australia and so on, around them looking to supply that market. So, we are seeing multiple different countries and organizations and areas thinking about it, and I think in a way, any one is probably enough to bring a lot of the cost reductions that we would see and we would expect, and we're already seeing very significant cost reductions.
Catherine Robinson (18:16):
The cost of hydrogen from electricity has already fallen. It's halved in the last five years, and we expect it to halve again in the next five years. So, the cost reductions are really happening already. The pipeline that's under development. So, the pipeline for electrolysis today is installed capacity is 80 megawatts around the whole world.
Catherine Robinson (18:36):
The pipeline to 2025 is 21 gigawatts. So, the scale is growing potentially really quickly, and if that happens, the cost reductions will come. It's a function of automation, it's a function of larger projects. If the current pipeline is built out, then the costs will be half of what they are today.
Hill Vaden (18:57):
So, one of the things that we try to do on this podcast is look at the energy market from the financial investor perspective. So, if we're looking at hydrogen, who are the types of players that are really going to be making money from hydrogen? Is this an opportunity for the integrated oil companies? Is this an opportunity for traditional Silicon Valley type names, or is it a whole new sector in itself?
Catherine Robinson (19:30):
I think it's really quite an interesting sector, because it depends how you think about hydrogen in a way. So, hydrogen is a gas. It plays to the strengths of upstream oil and gas companies. It plays to the strengths of transportation companies. It also can be made from electricity, so it plays to the strengths of the utilities. It can be used in end use, and there's a need for a retail infrastructure that maybe is for the oil and gas companies to play there as well.
Catherine Robinson (20:00):
So, there's very much different components that everybody can participate in the chain. There will be a large international transportation element of hydrogen. Maybe not by 2030, large then, but certainly maybe large by 2035. That's that shipping investment there, so there's a whole very complex value chain. What I don't think is very clear at the moment is where the highest returns in that value chain will be.
Catherine Robinson (20:29):
It's all very new, so is it going to be that the profitability sits in the upstream, or in the downstream? That, I think, today we don't know but there certainly is a whole new set of business opportunities out there.
Breanne Dougherty (20:42):
And just as we look forward to a more carbon conscious future, do we think hydrogen is a technology that is going to be here to stay? I mean sometimes as we go through these progressions, some things fall away, and some things continue to grow, and we see changes as its evolved. Does it look like hydrogen has a pretty good foothold in this progression? Or could it be replaced by some other? Is there another technology or another fuel source for instance, or carrier, that could be potentially knock hydrogen off the stack?
Catherine Robinson (21:18):
I think the question we were getting a couple of years ago was, is there a role for hydrogen? Is it just all hype now, and is it going to go away? I think what we're seeing increasingly now is there's an acceptance that hydrogen or some form of low carbon gas, is essential. So, full decarbonization, net zero carbon with just electricity is very difficult. So, there is a need for some other energy form. So either a liquid carrier, or a carrier that is a gas.
Catherine Robinson (21:49):
At the moment, the gas, the carrier that people is looking at is hydrogen. It could end up being that a lot of it is [inaudible 00:21:57] people use ammonia instead, but then they need hydrogen to make that ammonia. It could be that it's methanol, it could be synthetic liquids, or synthetic methane instead, but they all would have root that goes through green hydrogen, or a low carbon hydrogen step to get there.
Catherine Robinson (22:18):
But there's certainly a lot of uncertainty around what the form of the energy will be. I mean, for shipping for example, it might be ammonia. People are looking at developing ammonia fuel cells for power generation for example. So, there are a lot of technological development that can still happen.
Hill Vaden (22:37):
So, shipping the ammonia itself, or using the ammonia to power the ship?
Catherine Robinson (22:44):
Hill Vaden (22:45):
Okay. [crosstalk 00:22:46]
Catherine Robinson (22:47):
It's much cheaper to transport ammonia that it is to transport hydrogen. The cost of the transportation is much less, but then for the economics to be advantageous, you'd probably need to use for [inaudible 00:23:02] ammonia at the end of the transportation rather than wanting to use hydrogen.
Catherine Robinson (23:07):
So, these are the challenges that people are working with at the moment, and if you look at Japan for example, Japan is looking at a whole number of different transportation routes. So they're looking at import hydrogen in liquid form as ammonia, or in a liquid organic hydrogen carrier. So there's multiple different routes that are being considered.
Hill Vaden (23:27):
I mean, what's the NIMBY back... I mean, if you're moving things around that have to be converted to hydrogen, do existing refinery assets, or existing other assets, do they do that conversion now, or is there a new build out that one would have to factor into this to convert say, ammonia, or something else into hydrogen that's going to introduce these NIMBY concerns?
Catherine Robinson (23:56):
I mean, I think there are questions around the social acceptability of hydrogen that people are looking at addressing now. And there's a huge amount of work ongoing about safety. There's proposals, just back to the thing that Breanne mentioned at the beginning, around the UK strategy around using hydrogen for domestic heating.
Catherine Robinson (24:15):
What's the willingness of people to have hydrogen in their home to cook and to heat with? So there's a lot of work being done at the moment around proving the safety case for that, around proving the safety case for hydrogen and power generation, in transportation pipelines, in fuel cell vehicles and so on. But, that's a very large ongoing element. I think there has been some concerns. I think maybe in Korea and in [inaudible 00:24:42] there were some issues with some hydrogen storage that raised some concerns, but that's safety work that's ongoing and being tested.
Breanne Dougherty (24:53):
And hydrogen storage, my understanding is they could use existent natural gas storage facilities? Is this right?
Catherine Robinson (25:02):
Certainly. There's testing ongoing at the moment to check that that is a feasible option that you can. But you can certainly use salt storage for hydrogen.
Breanne Dougherty (25:11):
Catherine Robinson (25:13):
Compressed tanks, liquid hydrogen, there's multiple storage options.
Hill Vaden (25:18):
Is there a natural energy security that comes with an over-reliance or an increased reliance on hydrogen? It sounds like that there's so many ways of creating the hydrogen that it would give countries a lot of flexibility as opposed to be reliant on one country for oil, or one country on coal balls, or one country on something else.
Catherine Robinson (25:42):
I mean, I think the interesting angle here is that it can lead to a lot more domestic production. If you look at China for example, there's very good renewable resources, there's large amounts of coal that could be used, so it could lead to a drop in natural gas or oil imports. That's something that could be part of the future, but I think we would expect that exports would probably come from large exporters of energy today, as well. So, it maybe doesn't change the balance quite as much as people think, but there's certainly a lot of options.
Hill Vaden (26:17):
So, if someone like Saudi Arabia or Qatar, I mean are the implicitly big backers of hydrogen?
Catherine Robinson (26:24):
Yes, I think Saudi Aramco have been the king, and have made statements about exports to Japan. Looking at that as a potential market, also potentially looking at Europe. There's, I think, quite a bit of interest in the Middle East in exporting both East and West.
Hill Vaden (26:42):
You mentioned at the beginning of our discussion that there's still some debate around blue hydrogen may work into the system, and concerns around the fact that it involves carbon sequestration, and comes from a hydrocarbon. Can you just elaborate a little bit on that and where that dialogue is right now, because I imagine that the technologies have to be invested in today to meet these 2030 type targets. So far, everybody's okay with the idea of blue hydrogen? Or we think that it's going to be-
Catherine Robinson (27:18):
So, I think here I would have to talk about Europe, because I don't really know exactly the details in the other markets, but I think what we're seeing in the Netherlands in the UK, there are multiple projects, and Norway as well, to develop blue hydrogen with carbon sequestration. There was announcements about funding. There was an announcement this morning from the UK government about funding for one of those projects. The Dutch projects are ongoing and I'm looking through funding stages there as well.
Catherine Robinson (27:49):
In terms of what the European Union overall is talking about, there is still this ongoing discussion around what constitutes low carbon hydrogen. I think it's not entirely settled yet what the status will be of the different types of hydrogen and exactly what the funding mechanisms will be, but certainly the UK, the Netherlands, and Norway are all very definitely pushing ahead with hydrogen from blue sources.
Catherine Robinson (28:13):
I think there was an announcement in Italy last week as well, so there are multiple large projects under consideration, and going through various stages of feasibility [crosstalk 00:28:26] Yeah.
Breanne Dougherty (28:27):
Yeah, and where is the green hydrogen at this point? Still very much in the test phase because costs are still very high? How quick could that potentially-
Catherine Robinson (28:38):
What we're seeing at the moment is, I mean talking about what's investible and what's happening, I think we're seeing that old, the manufacturers of electrolysis are hugely increasing their production capacity, so they're all building factories that will move them up to about one gigawatt per year of capacity from 2022, 2023. That sort of time scale, so that's a clear commitment to the size of the market. We're also seeing large projects announced for completion in the early 2020s. So, 2022, '23, '24, that sort of time scale.
Hill Vaden (29:13):
So, and maybe this is a good way to wrap it up, but there seems to be a lot of momentum. I know we're each hearing it from our clients, from our colleagues, from whoever else. Is that momentum going to continue in somewhat of a linear episode, or is there some catalyst that we should be watching that says, "All right, once this happens, the hydrogen game is on and things are about to accelerate."? Or do we just watch more of a trend line?
Catherine Robinson (29:52):
I think the key sign post to watch is to watch and see how many of the current pipeline of electrolysis projects is built, and how quickly some of the large industrial processes are converted. There's a couple of large, I think, sign posts that we can see that would really make a difference. But even just in the last week, there was an announcement of very high high stream targets from Chile. It really is spreading very quickly, but we really need to see I think that policy put into action and begin to see some investment on the ground. So that's what I would watch for.
Breanne Dougherty (30:25):
[crosstalk 00:30:25] Is it fair to say to watch Europe, you think? That's the space to watch?
Catherine Robinson (30:30):
I think Europe, Australia, there's huge projects announced in Australia. I think watching them come to market is a huge sign post for what happens.
Hill Vaden (30:40):
And is country policy more so than corporate activity that we should be paying attention to?
Catherine Robinson (30:47):
I think they're both important. We've got a lot of the policies beginning to be put in place, and I think what will be interesting to see is once the projects really begin to take final investment decision. That's when we'll really understand how quickly things are going to change.
Breanne Dougherty (31:01):
Wow, that's great. Really appreciate you coming on, Catherine. As per usual with our guests, I feel like I learned a large sum, which maybe speaks to what I don't know going into the podcast.
Breanne Dougherty (31:14):
I'm not sure if that's necessarily a good sign, but needless to say, I appreciate the conversation, and I actually think that you raised some really interesting points, for in particular, our investor clients that might be listening in today around the value chain especially. Because that's something that's always of interest to them. So, we really appreciate you joining us, and I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that we'll be having you back-
Hill Vaden (31:39):
If you'll have-
Breanne Dougherty (31:39):
In the not so distant... if you'll come back. I think we try to make it pretty not scary.
Catherine Robinson (31:45):
[crosstalk 00:31:45] I would be very happy to.
Breanne Dougherty (31:48):
I think. We can take that conversation offline, Catherine. You can give us some honest feedback about whether or not you want to come back and join us. But yeah, because this is, we've said it several times throughout the podcast, but this is a space to watch because we are hearing questions from every side of the industry at this point, and from the investment community.
Breanne Dougherty (32:08):
So, everybody's eyes are on it, and I think very keen to see how things evolve over the next 12 months even. And as you said, there's a lot that's event potentially coming into play as early as 2022, 2023. So, yeah. So, thank you very much for joining us, and we hope you enjoy the rest of your day.
Hill Vaden (32:24):
Thank you Catherine.
Breanne Dougherty (32:24):
And Hill, as always, great chatting with you.
Catherine Robinson (32:27):
Hill Vaden (32:28):
Speaker 1 (32:30):
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Speaker 5 (32:52):
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